>> i think we'll probably see 20% for both not counting the obama care. >> is that the right answer? >> well, i'd like to keep them as low as possible. but given that they're going to need to raise some money, my guess is they're going to go up modestly. i think 20 is probably about right. it's a better answer than ordinary income rates on dividends. but i'd like to ask tom, you know, people who point to the dividend effect also think it might be overblown because about 70% of dividend paying stocks are owned by investors, either foreigners, or in tax -- you know, tax exempt plans, retirement accounts, where tax rate doesn't matter. does that make you feel a little bit better about what might be going on in washington? >> no. look, we know that the deal in washington must involve reducing costs. we've got to be flexible on revenues. but we've got to be for growth. when you think about tax policy with respect to growth capital, why in the world do you want to create artificial incentives for -- artificial disincentives to create capital information. why do you want a tax growth? that'